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 #17 (permalink) Wed Mar 07, 2007 17:02 pm What happened on September 11? |
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and Nina
I'd rather be like Paula than Simon (gender/sex aside).
hehe
Simon is honest... brutally so, at times. I don't think he's really mean at heart, but man, he surely does sound mean much of the time.
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Prezbucky
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| #18 (permalink) Wed Mar 07, 2007 17:09 pm What happened on September 11? |
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| prezbucky wrote: | | Terrorists who (of course) hated the USA lived here and learned to fly. They commandeered CIVILIAN flights and flew them into buildings. On one flight, heroes retook the plane and flew it into a field in Pennsylvania... before those nutjobs could complete their mission and fly it into the White House or Capitol Hill (etc. -- it was apparently headed for Wash DC). |
Tom, do you know this for a fact or is this what you believe? How can you tell the propaganda (any propaganda -- left, right or whatever) apart from the facts? What we know for sure is that the towers were hit by two airplanes. We also know that both towers caught fire and collapsed. As a matter of fact, both towers came down in free fall. We also know that most of the jet fuel exploded upon the impact outside of the buildings. There have been a dozen or so cases in which skyscrapers caught fire, one was even hit by an airplane. However, none of those towers collapsed as a result of that. They burned for hours but their concrete/steel constructions didn't tumble. Maybe I'm wrong but as far as I know the Twin Towers were the only towers that caught fire and collapsed within less than 15 minutes.
Before we go into any discussion about hate, oil, Israelis, Arabs, Iraq, etc. how about examining these facts? Who of us knows something about skyscrapers and statics? We assume that somebody was behind the attacks and depending on our political background or religion we also assume that we know who was behind the attacks. Yet, if we try to leave our political convictions behind and focus on physics and other facts, what does the situation look like then?
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Torsten
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| #19 (permalink) Wed Mar 07, 2007 17:18 pm What happened on September 11? |
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We're certain that the pilots were trained as pilots here in the US, Mohammed Atta among them.
The terrorists slipped through security and boarded those planes. Soon after takeoff, they commandeered the planes. Three of the four planes found their intended targets. The fourth was taken back by some brave passengers.
It goes against reason that anyone other than someone against the United States would do something like that. An American psychopath might try something like that, but most psychopaths do not want to kill themselves.
The fact that the act required full knowledge that this was a suicide mission means that we need to look at people who take their own lives while killing others (as in homicide/suicide bombers). Who does these things?
Isn't the answer obvious?
As for the physics:
The planes were filmed crashing into the towers. There is no question that two large airplanes hit the towers. No missiles were fired. The planes did the damage, and that damage was enough to take the towers down.
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Prezbucky
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| #20 (permalink) Wed Mar 07, 2007 17:26 pm What happened on September 11? |
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| Torsten wrote: | | Yet, if we try to leave our political convictions behind and focus on physics and other facts, what does the situation look like then? |
There is little that can be said, 'cause we do not know the floor plans and material of the constructions. It is clear, however that both towers collapsed in the same manner, so one could assume that the only reasons of the disaster were two planes. Note, that it was not a usual building - it was a skyscraper, and though rather high floors were damaged, there was pretty large mass remaining right above. Nobody can say how deep the planes penetrated, but the blast could completely remove the large part of walls and damage all the others. Once a single floor falls, nothing can stop the chain reaction...
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Aereal
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| #21 (permalink) Wed Mar 07, 2007 17:30 pm What happened on September 11? |
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like dominoes
could we make buildings out of kevlar?
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Prezbucky
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| #22 (permalink) Wed Mar 07, 2007 17:36 pm What happened on September 11? |
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| prezbucky wrote: | | could we make buildings out of kevlar? |
a couple of turrets and a radar would probably be more (cost)effective.
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Aereal
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| #23 (permalink) Wed Mar 07, 2007 18:39 pm What happened on September 11? |
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prezbucky -I don't hate Americans I hate ba...ds
prez and jamie k
If someone killed your sisters, fathers mothers or friends and told you :
We didn't want to kill them,We tried to kill bad people,but unfortunately We made mistake...
What would you do ?
p.s These people are not bad ,because Americans say they are bad...bad people are who makes decisions like bomb
Irak e.t.c
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Che Gevara
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| #24 (permalink) Wed Mar 07, 2007 23:39 pm What happened on September 11? |
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Che
I'd be pissed. But knowing they didn't do it purposely might make it a bit easier. I don't know. I might blame the insurgents for putting the country in this position. We're there only as long as they continue, only as long as sectarian violence keeps the peaceful iraqis from living.
It's not an easy situation.
And I know you're against bad peops -- you're a good person, I think.
Aereal
Yeah, turrets, radar, and kevlar sheeting. hehe
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Prezbucky
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| #25 (permalink) Thu Mar 08, 2007 0:30 am What happened on September 11? |
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| Che Gevara wrote: | This film is one of the winners of kan festival in 2004..
Films based on lies never win,on such festivals.... |
Ooooooooh, ho ho ho ho ho ho! 
You're more na?ve than I thought!
| Che Gevara wrote: | | American supported Afghanistan , Iraq.. then they bombed these Countries.. |
Well, we supported our smaller enemies fighting in Afghanistan against our bigger enemies, who were the Soviets. After the Taliban (one of the fighting groups we gave arms to) took over, and thanked us by harboring and supporting the group that ADMITTED they had planned and carried out the Twin Towers bombing, and they refused to turn the masterminds over to us, we threw them out. Not just us, but us and many other countries in the alliance. It wouldn't have been half as easy if the Afghans had actually LIKED being imprisoned under the Taliban, but they didn't. You see, under the previous regime, they'd been used to dressing normally, educating their daughters, listening to music, having opinions, etc., and they didn't have mass executions in football stadiums where family members were forced to murder each other or be murdered themselves. I think they were ready for some other type of entertainment. Che, I know you admire genocidal dictators, as you've said before, but you have to admit that people would probably not resist much if another country invaded and threw out foreigners who were imposing this type of regime on them. (And the Taliban were mostly foreigners.)
| Che Gevara wrote: | | It's not a Computer game..It's thousends of lifes... |
Yes, we know this. The thing we don't understand is that you always side with the dictators who are perpetrating the genocide, and not the coalition of several counties that throws them out and tries to bring people's lives back to normal. You support the people blowing up the car bombs at universities, but you don't support the people who are trying to stop it.
| Che Gevara wrote: | | I only advise to everyone,who has never seen this movie,watch it you you will learn much about 9/11 and the president of the US... |
It will be a good lesson in false propaganda, but you will not learn anything from it unless you watch the response film afterward, as we can see from Che's remarks. Che, you're a classic example of someone who was fooled by that film.
| Che Gevara wrote: | | When did I express admiration for Stalin ? He was Georgian, so I say good things or nothing about Georgians when talking to strangers,like you.. |
As they say in the East, "Me against my brother, and my brother and me against the world."
You dismissed Stalin's killing of 30 million people as "mistakes" (your word). After someone makes a mistake the first 10 million times, I figure he should already have learned not to make it. 
| Che Gevara wrote: | | but he's past and not dangerous, your president is really dangerous... |
But he's still a good lesson in the dangers of despotism.
| Che Gevara wrote: | | I'm sure there will be war between Christians and Muslims including whole world and it is gone start because of this evil, playing cowboy.... |
Your "war between Christians and Muslims" began several decades before GWB was born. In fact, it started many CENTURIES before he was born, and Mohammed fought in some of the battles.
You also need to understand that Americans don't understand the word "cowboy" as an insult most of the time, so I think your epithet is lost on us. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #26 (permalink) Thu Mar 08, 2007 0:51 am What happened on September 11? |
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| Torsten wrote: | | prezbucky wrote: | | Terrorists who (of course) hated the USA lived here and learned to fly. They commandeered CIVILIAN flights and flew them into buildings. On one flight, heroes retook the plane and flew it into a field in Pennsylvania... before those nutjobs could complete their mission and fly it into the White House or Capitol Hill (etc. -- it was apparently headed for Wash DC). |
Before we go into any discussion about hate, oil, Israelis, Arabs, Iraq, etc. how about examining these facts? Who of us knows something about skyscrapers and statics? We assume that somebody was behind the attacks and depending on our political background or religion we also assume that we know who was behind the attacks. Yet, if we try to leave our political convictions behind and focus on physics and other facts, what does the situation look like then? |
Torsten, this was all explained very clearly through various media outlets by various experts right after the towers fell, but you apparently were not listening, or are now choosing to forget.
Here is the explanation, as it was always given, by people who know the architecture of the Twin Towers. The conspiracy theorists are not architects.
http://architecture.about.com/library/weekly/aawtc-collapse.htm
I think the reason we Americans are not discussing it is because it was all plausibly explained by independent experts within a week after the attacks.
You still haven't answered my question about whether or not you believe the "proven" "truth" that Hitler is still alive in Brazil and trying to make clones of himself in order to take over the world. At least one film used facts to "prove" this. Please tell me if you think it's true.
Also explain to me this: If you accept this current conspiracy theory, why didn't you accept the previous popular conspiracy theory that said "The Jews" planned and carried out the 9/11 attacks? That was also "proven" with "facts", and as we know, there's a single unified group called "The Jews" that all agree with each other on everything and cause all kinds of mischief in the world.  If you don't believe me, I'll put Elvis Presley on the phone and have him explain it to you. He's still alive, you know, but he's hiding. I happen to know where he is. The thing he hasn't explained to me, though, is, if he's still alive, how come his ghost has appeared to so many of his fans in the middle of the night. And by the way, Paul McCartney died in the late 1960s, and he's still dead. He still does concerts from time to time, even though he's dead. He looks good for a corpse that old. It's been proven that he's dead, though. Princess Di is still alive, and that's also been proven. That's another strange thing, because even though it's been proven that Prince Charles and Queen Elizabeth had her killed, it's recently been proven that she's still alive. She's hiding too, with all the other dead people who are still alive. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #27 (permalink) Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:29 am What happened on September 11? |
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| Che Gevara wrote: | If someone killed your sisters, fathers mothers or friends and told you :
We didn't want to kill them,We tried to kill bad people,but unfortunately We made mistake...
What would you do ? |
Let's put it into a more accurate context that's more like what's happening in Afghanistan, Lebanon and Iraq (and like what also happened in El Salvador and Bosnia).
If terrorists in my town had trapped my mother and father, sisters, brother and friends in a house, and started shooting rockets out the window at a crowded market, or a school, or somewhere else where they could murder masses of innocent civilians, and the Chinese army were there, and not able to stop those terrorists without also killing my friends and family, I would mourn the death of my family, and I would thank the Chinese army for stopping the terrorists. I would realize that the death of my family members was the fault of the terrorists who had trapped them in the house and tried to use them for human shields. It would not be the fault of the Chinese soldiers who had stopped them.
After that, however, other people in the terrorists' network, with TV cameras, would take videos of the dead bodies of my family and the other people who were in the house. They may even bring over dead bodies from other places and set them there too, in order to make the carnage look even worse. Then they would put this on international TV, say that the the Chinese soldiers had killed the people, but they would not say that they were trapped in the house by terrorists who were shooting out of it. I would see that the Chinese had no choice, but Che would be at home calling the Chinese murderers and the terrorists freedom fighters.
Che and Torsten (and anyone else who's interested) watch this film about the creation of news footage in the Middle East:
I think it's a Canadian film, or at least the announcer has a Canadian accent. |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #28 (permalink) Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:33 am What happened on September 11? |
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Jamie (K) if not Stalin ,You could be a slave of Hitler's Grandson : )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I do not want debate with you,because you won't change your mind and me too of course : ))
and others who are interested just can watch the movie..
I couldn't even imagine the Congressmen in the USA vote for laws without reading it : ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I didn't know that on the day of inauguration GWB ,there was a huge demonstration under the slogans like "Bush Cheated" "Lord help us ","A sad day " "Greed Oil Pollution" e.t.c and he's limousine was thrown with eggs : )))))))))))))))))))))))))
and jamie k can't deny that,cause these are facts....
I 've uploaded some vids,about UK,US Soldiers,just watch them and make decisions..... here is the download link..
http://up.aqache.com/?f=zRUKf9I2k6mq
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Che Gevara
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| #29 (permalink) Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:45 pm What happened on September 11? |
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| Che Gevara wrote: | | I couldn't even imagine the Congressmen in the USA vote for laws without reading it : )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) |
Well, if you're in the US Congress, you have to vote on hundreds of bills, and many of them -- like the federal tax code -- are thousands of pages long. In fact, the federal tax code is TENS of thousands of pages long. Many of these laws are renewals of old laws, and the changes are minimal, so for the congressman or senator to read the whole bill would be a waste of time and take time away from important duties that only he can carry out. This is why people in Congress have large staffs of employees, including lawyers, who read many of the laws for them, provide them with summaries, and point out to them which parts are new, and where potential problems may lie. This is true in the legislature of every country. So, in this sense it's true to say that members of the US Congress pass laws without reading them, but it would be a lie to say that they don't know what's in the bills. This is an example of deliberately using an oversimplification of the truth in order to create a false impression in people like you. That's the same as lying.
Besides, I know that in the Georgian parliament you have members who not only don't read all the laws they vote on, but some of them don't even show up to sessions, and a few of them are drunk a lot of the time.
| Che Gevara wrote: | I didn't know that on the day of inauguration GWB ,there was a huge demonstration under the slogans like "Bush Cheated" "Lord help us ","A sad day " "Greed Oil Pollution" e.t.c and he's limousine was thrown with eggs : )))))))))))))))))))))))))
and jamie k can't deny that,cause these are facts.... |
I know that these demonstrations happened. I know more about them than you do. But just because a crowd of people are holding up protest signs and screaming doesn't mean they're right, or that what they're screaming about is true. And this minority of people throw eggs or pies or other objects at politicians and political speakers all the time. They've been saying the same things about every president since I was a teenager (at least), and they've been doing the same things for decades, regardless of the specific political circumstances at any specific time.
Bush didn't "steal" the election in 2000. The Florida government did a vote recount and found he had won. The New York Times and several other newspapers and TV networks who are very anti-Bush had their own recounts done, and those proved that Bush won, much to the dismay of the organizations that had commissioned the recounts. Those votes were counted and counted by pro-Bush, anti-Bush and neutral organizations, and every recount showed that Bush had actually won by a small margin.
The claims about oil have been made about almost every president since the 19th century. They're a type of religious ritual among leftist political groups and usually have nothing to do with actual truth.
The problem, Che, is that your knowledge of the US is so limited, and you have very little social or political context to judge things from.
Che, you haven't watched the videos I've asked you to. How do you expect me to watch these? |
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Jamie (K)
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| #30 (permalink) Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:48 pm What happened on September 11? |
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| Torsten wrote: | | How can you tell the propaganda (any propaganda -- left, right or whatever) apart from the facts? |
Torsten, if you watch Fahrenhype 9/11, it will be obvious to you in many places that people who watched Fahrenheit 9/11 are being duped. You'll be able to tell where the propaganda was. |
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Jamie (K)
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