The idea of "the Middle Way"

[Ahmadov]

[Ahmadov]

By the way, I feel that you have specific attitude to Muslims... Do you have any Muslim friend with whom you discuss this topic?
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Learning is a sacred engagement.

[Jamie (K)]

[Jamie (K)]

[Ahmadov]

As a Mulsim, I am also disappointed with lots of things that are taking place in Muslim societies. However, this never influnces my belief and I assure you that I am also not brainwashed. I am simply fond of the Holy Quran and I believe that this is a heavenly book. There are so many brilliant verses like this:

3:191 Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.

12:105 And how many Signs in the heavens and the earth do they pass by? Yet they turn (their faces) away from them!

Please, note that all these verses have nothing to do with terrorism or radicalism...
All the best
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Learning is a sacred engagement.

[Aleaf]

1. Actually no. The United States, under Bush, Clinton, Bush and their predecessors have a policy of trying to pacify various nations and bring them into the world community through free trade. This is because free trade and economic dependence on the rest of the world usually makes countries behave less aggressively toward other countries, and it also makes them treat their own citizens better. And it works much better than war or foreign aid.

Through what you wrote above, you once again described the USA as a savior. Yes the USA is the only big dog in the world who has the right to decide who can take part in the game.
Thanks.

2. Trade with China turns out to be problematic right now, however, because China has been exporting contaminated food, dangerously defective tires and other bad products, including toothpaste that killed several people in Central America.

If you think the products are poor quality just stop it. We haven’t beg you or force you to import them. Ridiculous.

3. The US is capable of blowing Iran off the map, but we have not attacked them.

It proves that USA authorities hasn’t complete got crazy. If the USA did so, people of other countries will hate USA much more than before. The USA doesn’t have the right to decide the fate of a sovereign nation. Logic of robbers.

4. Iraq's oil is put on the world market, and the money is used to aid in the country's reconstruction,

You Americans made a chaos in Iraq, surely you have the responsibility to remedy what you have done. Some loss cann’t be remedied by money forever.

5. We pour far more money into Iraq -- even in civilian aid -- than we get out of it. Iraq's oil facilities are owned by their national government, and they do what they want to with the money.

You once again described the USA as an angle. When yoy wrote the word”more” Have you got any concrete figure to support it?
Before the Iraq War , according to a research of Italian Milan university, it was estimated that the United States would spend $40,000,000,000,in Iraq war and this consumes would be all earned by the American munitioners
and during the period of war, petroleum would rise from $ 15 a barrel to $42, so the total additional benefit would be $ 60,000,000,000 , among which 30,000,000,000 would be divided by seven multinational companies which control petroleum in Middle East. And these all of seven companies are all American companies eg Tamoil, Esso etc, and five of the seven companies belong to American government directly, Therefore, American government will get 21,000,000,000 of the total 30,000,000,000,

And read <Hydrocarbon Law> again , everyone will know who will benefit from the war most.

A book named: Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq (Hardcover) wrote: Over the decades, a version of this story repeats, and repeats.The United States has thwarted independence movements in Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Philippines and Nicaragua; staged covert actions and coups d'etat in Iran, Guatemala, South Vietnam and Chile; and invaded Grenada, Panama and obviously Afghanistan and Iraq. Over 110 years, the United States has deployed its power to gain access to natural resources, stifle dissent and control the nationalism of newly independent states or political movements.

6. So you think that bad things come to China when it is not ruled by someone of the Han race? Aren't you kind of racist?

I am not a racist. Haven’t Yuan Dynasty did it? Isn’t it a truth?

7. Formosa (Taiwan) in 1683.

History books show Taiwan has long been part of China.
It was known as Yizhou or Liuqiu at different times throughout history and many records and annals document the development of Taiwan by the Chinese people. References to this effect are to be found, among others, in "Seaboard Geographic Gazeteer" compiled by Shen Ying of the State of Wu during the period of the Three Kingdoms. This was the world's earliest written account of Taiwan.
As early as in the mid-12th century, the Song Dynasty had set up a garrison in Penghu, putting the territory under the jurisdiction of Jinjiang County of Fujian's Quanzhou Prefecture.
In the 13th century, the Yuan Dynasty installed a patrol and inspection agency in Penghu to administer the territory.
During the mid- and late-16th century, the Ming Dynasty reinstalled the agency, which had been abolished, and sent reinforcements to Penghu to ward off foreign invaders.
In 1624, Dutch colonialists invaded and occupied the southern part of Taiwan. Two years later, Spanish colonialists seized the northern part of Taiwan.
In 1642, the Dutch evicted the Spaniards and took over north Taiwan.
;In 1661, General Zheng Chenggong (known in the West as Koxinga) led an expedition to Taiwan and drove away the Dutch colonialists from the island the next year and set up the Chengtian Prefecture on Taiwan.
The Qing government expanded the administrative structure in Taiwan, strengthening its rule over the territory.
In 1885, the Qing government formally made Taiwan a full province, covering three prefectures and one sub-prefecture and incorporating 11 counties and 5 cantons.
In 1894, Japan launched a war of aggression against China and the next year, the Qing government was forced to sign the humiliating Treaty of Shimonoseki, ceding Taiwan to Japan.
On December 1, 1943, the Cairo Declaration issued by China, the United States and Great Britain, stated: "It is the purpose of the three great Allies that Japan shall be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the World War I in 1914, and that all the territories Japan has stolen from China, such as Manchuria, Formosa (Taiwan) and the Pescadores (Penghu), shall be restored to China.
On October 25, 1945, the ceremony accepting Japan's surrender in Taiwan Province of the China war theatre of the Allied powers was held in Taipei.

8. Tibet in 1720, 1750, 1910 and 1950.Mongolia in 1693.

Once again you cared about the inner affairs of china. Both Tibet and Mogolia are part of china.
If you called them invasion, the biggest invasion happened in history is Europeans found American continent and the foundation of the USA.
But when we owned Tibetan and Mongolia , many countries in the world didn’t exit at all at that time.

Except that i also collected some pictures about the life before 1950 in Tibet. But these pictures can't be showed here so i just pasted illustration of the pictures.

1)Tibet serf's system begin from for 10 centuries, in 1959 Tibet the democracy reform exercise is rescinded. Nobilities, upper level monastery, making up less than 5% of the total population of
Tibet monopolized the means of production, culture and education (all lands, steppes and animals).The written Chinese of 14 centuries jots down nobilities, upper level monastery used the person's top of the skull bone, shin, person's skin, public liver...as sacrifice

2)Tibetan serfs with a chain or shackle for the ankles or feet.

3)A Tibetan serf being cut away an arm.

4)Tibetan serfs who works for nobles without any payment.

5) In Tibet the Thirteen-Point Law and Sixteen-Point Law formulated in the 17th century and used for more than 300 years, divided the people strictly into three classes and nine grades: the people of the upper class were big nobles,Grand Living Buddhas and high officials, the people of the intermediate class were ordinary clerical and secular officials, junior officers and stewards of upper class people, and the people of the lower class were serfs and slaves. The Following three pictures were nobles who were in richly ornamented clothing.


6)A female serf . guess how old was she? 36.


7)The cruel serf-owner put out the serf's eyes

9. Vietnam in 1979

In 1974, the Ping-Pong Diplomacy led to the resumption of ties between China and the United States which made Vietnam dissatisfied, so they cooperated and supported Soviet Union. And took China as" number one enemy", and started to and anti- China anti-Chinese crazily. They seized our country territory, ruined our villages and killed our soliders and people, threatened and broke the safety of our country frontier The Chinese government puts forward warning and protested for many times, the Vietnamese authorities ignores it all. Vietnam troop crossed the border first and then Chinese government sent armed forces.

10. The only problem for your understanding this is that you have been taught by the communists that every country that China has invaded "has always been part of China", which is not true. This is a problem with your education.

Ridiculous. Why you don't think it your education's fault?

11.In addition to this, as I mentioned, China mainly opposes its enemies by having other people do the fighting. Iranian insurgents in Iraq shoot at Americans with Chinese weapons. China provides military assistance and weapons to fight proxy wars in various places around the world. All the world's military powers do this, and China is no different.
This is politics.Your military is n't better than any of them.

12.No country can prevent all information from getting out. People who have survived laogai camps have wound up in free countries to tell the tale. Sometimes even the guards get out. One laogai survivor went back posing as a businessman, and he had a video camera hidden in his briefcase. In one place he was posing as a patient needing an organ transplant, and he was told directly by the Chinese hospital personnel that the organs come from prisoners and that people have trouble getting organs in the West "because of human rights".

If the organs are from dead persons? From criminals sentenced to death?

13. Mongolia was a sovereign nation before China took it. In fact, for quite some time it was sovereign over China!

It is your opinion not we chinese’s.
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Try to change youself before you try to change others.

[Prezbucky]

Yeah, Kurds here in Nashville -- there is a fairly sizable population of Kurds here -- don't get gassed and/or boiled in acid by an evil dictator (...same guy we took down in Iraq and who is now dead -- lest anyone forget).
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Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee.

[Prezbucky]

And Aleaf

When a dictator piles such atrocities on his own people, we sure as heck do have a right to depose him.

To turn a blind eye would be naive and irresponsible and would (imo) show apathy.

We're still trying to make Iraq safe for the peaceful Iraqis. Unfortunately, a few militant Iraqi Sunnis and terror forces from elsewhere don't want that to happen. But we're trying still.
_________________
Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee.

[Jamie (K)]

Ahmadov, there are other brilliant verses in the Koran, like these:

[Ahmadov]

They are brilliant indeed, Jamie... You should look at "Fight against those who believe not in Allah" whithin the historical context, rather than a standalone idea... There are other verses where Allah says: "2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." So, the whole problem is that how you interprete the Book. Interestingly, the Book mostly speaks about kindness and compassion, but many try to pick on to some bellicose verses, which are linked with the time when pagans and believers were fighting...
_________________
Learning is a sacred engagement.

[Jamie (K)]

Ahmadov, the problem is that those verses about the murder of Jews and Christians may have been made at a historical time, but they are not tied to that historical time. They are generally open-ended, and even extend to the end of the world. Things get even more horrid when you look at the hadiths, where Muslims are called to do very despicable things, such as murder women for adultery and murder anyone for converting to another religion. To behave peacefully, Muslims have to ignore many direct, open-ended commands of Mohammed.

I have sat there with Muslims telling me that adulteresses (but not adulterers, of course) should be killed, and that the death penalty is justified for Muslims who convert from Islam to Christianity, Buddhism or some other religion. More of them appear to agree with this than to disagree, and the ones who disagree have to perform a complicated tap dance to explain why many of Mohammed's commands should be ignored. When I mention that most religions believe in converting such people rather than killing them, and that the best preacher is often a converted sinner, they find the whole idea repulsive. They respond by saying things like, "When did that happen?! No sinner can become a holy person!" They think it's a completely crazy idea.

[Ahmadov]

Jamie (K), thanks for patiently discussing this issue. However, there are a number of points in what you say that completely contradict the Koran, like killing Christians. Actually, the Koran says that the people close to Muslims are Christians, which is because there are modest preachs among them (Chapter Maideh). The other thing is that there is no difference between women and men in punishing them for adultery. This is clearly said in Chapter Nur. There are lots of things in Muslims societies done in accordance with local tradition rather than the Koran. These local conservative traditions are mistakenly attributed to Islam. You can even see some societies not allowing women to study, which completly contradicts the Koran...
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Learning is a sacred engagement.

[Aleaf]

Prez:
When a dictator piles such atrocities on his own people, we sure as heck do have a right to depose him.

To turn a blind eye would be naive and irresponsible and would (imo) show apathy.

I agree.
But the problem is many people judge the values of other countries'on the basis of their own values instead of the local people. I think in fact every person is brainwashed by his/ her own country more or less.

I prefer the intestine affairs of the nation should be solved by the people of the country. Any a foreign country doesn't have right to touch the matter especially without the invitation of people there.

Besides i don't believe any a country "helps" other countries without political or economic interests consideration(Including China). There is no real friendship between nations.That is why i don't like politics.
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Try to change youself before you try to change others.

[Jamie (K)]

[Aleaf]

Jamie

I read the chinese version of the research by the italian University and translated it by translation software. It seems the software is not so sufficient. But the article is very difficult to translate and i have improved the translation. Hope you can figure it out this time.
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Try to change youself before you try to change others.