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 #122 (permalink) Thu Nov 01, 2007 23:17 pm feedback on tests |
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| Alan wrote: | Hi,
Surely the point to remember is that language and the usage of individual words is not static. For all we know a new English word may well be created today on the other side of the world from wherever you are and tomorrow may become common currency throughout the world. I can't really see the value of issuing 'health warnings' to some words and expressions indicating 'this word may seriously damage the health of your current vocabulary.'
Alan |
So, how long are you anticipating the wait will be before the "mutton-lamb" expression becomes widespread on this side of the pond, Alan? And what makes you believe that it will happen at all?
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| #123 (permalink) Thu Nov 01, 2007 23:40 pm feedback and errors in mental processes ;-) |
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| Torsten wrote: | Hi Amy,
Maybe you can create some kind of interactive 'idiom map' of the United States where you publish phrases and idioms along with usage information. For example, you can indicate where in the US a particular phrase is used and by whom. You can publish demographic information about the users of a phrase such as their age, education background, job situation, religion, etc. It goes without saying that the 'idiom and phrase map of the USA' needs to be updated on a regular basis since language and its usage change constantly. |
It seems to me that the "mutton-lamb" expression must be basically limited to the corner of Fifth and Elm in some one-horse town in the US. I don't know, though -- I haven't actually heard it used at Fifth and Elm, either. 
Your English must be slipping pretty severely, Torsten, if you read my post as a suggestion for an idiom map of the US. Why not simply take a simple statement as just that? A simple statement. A simple statement about usage.
As for me, tomorrow I'm going to start talking about "bed tea" with everyone I know. And even when I notice that nobody knows what the heck "bed tea" even is, I'll simply think of it as their problem. There is no need for me to comment on meaning or usage, right? You've convinced me that my new motto should be "Let 'em wonder!" It is not important for other people to understand you. Never!
After all, I know what "bed tea" means, and that's all that matters! Even if I'm aware that the expression "bed tea" is only used in a different version of English, in a distant foreign country, I should simply use the expression freely here, and without so much as a second thought, right? Let's just leave everyone clueless. Why bother with general usage information?
Goodness! Imagine anyone ever mentioning usage! How unthinkable!
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| #124 (permalink) Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:07 am The tests |
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Hi MM,
No worries - I didn't take it personally. As I stated before, I am aware that many tests don't use that approach - I was only stating my opinion.
And, I do appreciate the input. The reason I mentioned it at all is because I think it's beneficial to test two aspects at once - that's why I thought it should be in the advanced level. However, at first, I really wasn't sure which level to put it in.
Anyway, I think the test questions have been changed and all of your points are valid.
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 Linda
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| #125 (permalink) Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:41 am feedback on tests |
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Hi Amy,
I get the impression that you are angry with anyone who comments on your comments about usage. Now don't bite my head off ! but I get a sense that when you make these comments, there is an underlying hint suggesting that a test writer using a certain word or expression not used, you say, in your country should not have the audacity to use it/them in the first place. I have no brief for 'mutton dressed as lamb' as an expression that should or should not be used in a test. To me it is an expression as natural as driving on the left but then there are millions who drive on the right. Providing its meaning is clear from the context, where's the problem? It may well have a limited use on the world stage and may evoke comments like: What the devil does this mean? Good, so be it. Let's explain it - not forbid its use. As for your remark about when this expression will go worldwide - who knows? Maybe that this site will cause it to do so. The point I am struggling to make is that words and expressions can drop out of the sky nowadays. Your President can make a characteristic remark today and it can become common currency tomorrow down at the pub 1/2 mile from where I am sitting.
Alan
PS Enjoy your 'bed tea' never heard that before! but I like it.
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Lost_Soul
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| #127 (permalink) Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:52 am feedback on tests |
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Hi Amy,
You are absolutely right in saying that usage information is very important when it comes to learning and discussing idioms, proverbs and other phrases. One of the reasons for this is the fact that the English language constantly changes. An expression which is popular and widely used today might be out of fashion in a couple of years or rather replaced by new expressions. That's why anyone who uses the materials on our site is invited to ask questions about any phrase or expression. For example, you have told us that you had never heard the idiom 'mutton dressed as lamb' before and so has Charles. But Charles also said that he likes the expression and that it is 'a nice image'. Maybe Charles also likes to learn new phrases and expressions and this could be one he starts using? I'm sure that the users of our site are very glad that you have started this discussion on the popularity of the idiom 'mutton dressed as lamb' because you are helping them raise awareness of different usages of English.
So, thanks a lot for bringing up this question.
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| #128 (permalink) Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:02 pm feedback on tests |
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| Alan wrote: | Hi Amy,
I get the impression that you are angry with anyone who comments on your comments about usage. Now don't bite my head off ! but I get a sense that when you make these comments, there is an underlying hint suggesting that a test writer using a certain word or expression not used, you say, in your country should not have the audacity to use it/them in the first place. Please show me exactly where I said that, Alan. You can't, can you? That's because your statement is a lie, and I feel sure that you've intentionally lied. It is the founders and a few moderators on this site who get all upset if I dare to mention that a particular word or phrase is not in use in this part of the world. You seem to want to deny and censor such facts. I disagree with you that this sort of usage information should be hidden from language learners. I have no brief for 'mutton dressed as lamb' as an expression that should or should not be used in a test. I have never said that it should not be used in a test. That's another fabrication of yours. If you are going to complain about things that people say, it really ought to be things that people have actually said. To me it is an expression as natural as driving on the left but then there are millions who drive on the right. Providing its meaning is clear from the context, where's the problem? As I've said, the problem is apparently the fact that a number of people here can't deal with simple statements of fact. It may well have a limited use on the world stage and may evoke comments like: What the devil does this mean? Good, so be it. Let's explain it - not forbid its use. I have not suggested forbidding its use. I made a simple statement about the fact that it is not in use on this side of the pond. You seem to be the one forbidding certain language here -- not me.As for your remark about when this expression will go worldwide - who knows? Maybe that this site will cause it to do so. The point I am struggling to make is that words and expressions can drop out of the sky nowadays. Your President can make a characteristic remark today and it can become common currency tomorrow down at the pub 1/2 mile from where I am sitting. How long has the "mutton-lamb" expression been in use in Britain? Shall we stop pointing out how, when or where words are currently used simply because you believe that the usage might change next month, next year or in the year 2575? Is it "permitted" on this site to mention that people nowadays do not normally speak or write like the people in Shakespeare's day did? Or would you prefer to suggest to ESL students that modern English the world over is exactly like the English used in Britain in the 1600s?
Alan
PS Enjoy your 'bed tea' never heard that before! but I like it. Yup, I like it, too. Too bad you don't see fit to pay closer attention to your own site, though. Otherwise you might know that this expression you claim to like so much has been discussed here before now. Nevertheless, "bed tea" still has not come into general use in the US. That has nothing to do with whether or not I personally like the expression. It is just a simple fact. |
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| #129 (permalink) Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:38 pm feedback on tests |
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And there you go, I did get my head bitten off. Just for the record, I didn't highlight 'you say' in my posting and 'lying' is a very strong word to describe my very tentative: but I get a sense that when you make these comments, there is an underlying hint suggesting... I am also accused of 'censoring', 'denying' and 'fabricating'. I imagine anyone reading my remarks and yours will draw their own conclusions. It's ironic, to me at least, that you choose to make your comments in blue.
PS What's Shakespeare, by the way, got to do with all this?
| Quote: | | The lady doth protest too much, methinks. |
Hamlet Act 3, scene 2
Alan
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| #130 (permalink) Fri Nov 02, 2007 15:17 pm feedback on tests |
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| Torsten wrote: | | But Charles also said that he likes the expression and that it is 'a nice image'. |
I also think the meaning of the expression creates an interesting image, but you are repeatedly missing the point. I did not say whether I personally liked or disliked the expression. I simply told you about the fact that the expression is not in general use over here, and that it was also my opinion that people here would not understand it. I see usage information as being of value to language learners. It is shocking to me that you seemingly would prefer to hide or withhold such information.
You may recall that I did not say whether I liked or disliked the expression. I pointed out that is is not in general use here and that many people would probably not understand it. Since writing that, I have in fact tested my stated belief "live" in the area where I currently live. I have now asked people of various ages and from various walks of life if they know what the expression means. The context I used was the test sentence. No one knew what "mutton dressed as lamb" or "a mutton dressed as a lamb" meant. Part of the problem was that most weren't even entirely sure what "mutton" means or suggests. (Naturally, I've got some theories about that fact, too, but I have to assume that you have no interest whatsoever in hearing any of that.) Anyway, the person who came the closest to guessing the meaning of "mutton dressed as lamb" was a retired school teacher whose parents were both born and raised in Britain. However, even she told me that she'd never heard the expression before.
I made my original comment because I think that ESL students like to know what expressions they can reliably use to be understood in English. It was my opinion that this British expression ran an extremely high risk of not being understood here in the US. My opinion about that has only grown stronger.
People can and will use whatever words they want to use. You see fit to argue against using certain "modern" spellings (for example, u, r, your and i). Why is it acceptable to state that such usage is not good while at the same time you think it is somehow wrong to let people know that a certain idiom is NOT in general use at all in a huge portion of the English-speaking world? Why is it acceptable to discuss how vocabulary is used and not used, but it is not acceptable to mention the fact that certain idioms are not used at all in huge portions of the English-speaking world? That just doesn't make any sense, Torsten.
I provided you and your site with the simple fact that the "mutton-lamb" idiom is not in general use here. Can people learn the expression anyway? Sure! Why not? But I do think you are doing a disservice to the learners on this site when you withhold or knowingly misrepresent information about usage. I would assume that most Brits probably don't know exactly which English idioms are well-known and used beyond their national borders and which are not. An American can provide some general feedback about what is used and not used in the US. What you and Alan seem to be doing is prohibiting the sharing of such information. I do not think that restricting information about actual usage is beneficial to ESL students. Not in the least. Are you willing to advise ESL students about when, where or even whether the usage of the F-word is OK? Of course you are. So, why not also allow input about "a lack of usage"?
Why did you ask (in another thread) about the word photocopiable? It sounded to me as if you were under the impression that the usage of that word was completely unknown and/or incorrect. Why did you think that word was not "valid" and "never" used in English? Did someone mislead you about the usage? Naturally, I have my own opinion about how often, when, where, by whom, etc. that word tends to be used. Or do you prefer a dictionary entry of the word as "proof" of any existing usage. Is it "permissible" on this site to express the opinion that usage of the word photocopiable seems to be fairly restricted to the context of course books and testing material? Or are the founders and some of the moderators here going to get all upset by that sort of "frequency of usage" statement as well?
| Torsten wrote: | | Maybe Charles also likes to learn new phrases and expressions and this could be one he starts using? |
I'd be willing to bet that if Charles ever uses "mutton dressed as lamb", it will be just that way -- i.e. without any articles.  |
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| #131 (permalink) Fri Nov 02, 2007 16:25 pm feedback on tests |
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This is a story that clearly uses the expression. As you can see at the bottom, the writer lives in Toronto, Canada.
Mutton dressed as Britney Spears
by Evelyn Yallen
You're walking down a street when you notice a woman ahead of you. She's outfitted head to toe in the latest couture, carrying the handbag de jour; she's fit and toned. Whether you're a man or a woman, she has the unsettling ability to make you feel old, frumpy and just that little bit not quite with it. You figure Ms. Lookin' Good is maybe 22, 25 tops.
Then you pass her… and the instant you get a look at her face, you realize that she's got to be 55 if she's a day. You've been had by Dorian Gray Syndrome: (mostly) women who refuse to grow older, morphing into ever-younger and more incredible incarnations as the unacknowledged years pass.
Welcome to the art of aging disgracefully. Even a generation or two ago, you could pretty well guess a person's age by just looking at her. There was an unwritten rule that growing older meant accepting your age and, likely, your age-softened shape. The common and disdainful expression for those who refused to toe the line: mutton dressed as lamb. Today, age may truly be only a number, but its exterior just refuses to admit to renovation.
What's wrong with being mutton? Well, as a society we're generally more active, involved in more sports and fitness pastimes than our parents or grandparents, and unwilling to give it all up unless infirmity forces us to. And why should we? With Viagra, Botox, lifts and liposuction, we can stay ageless forever, in a Jack Benny twilight of 39 - if we'll even admit to that much.
All of this begs the question of what we're supposed to look like or be doing at 40, 50, 60 and beyond. (By the time my mother was my age, 43, she had three kids, the oldest of whom was 22. My son is seven and I try not to calculate how old I'll be when he's 22.) Today, there's a sense that if you're in good shape, why not wear tight clothes and show it off, whether it be the result of Pilates or plastic surgery? There remains, however, a fine line between looking good and looking appropriate, and I think we're still uncertain about what really defines the two.
And, as consultants like to intone, there is a cost associated with virtual agelessness. Many of us will become beholden to the surgeon for continued fixes to keep us looking youthful. Botox expires, skin sags despite face lifts and lipo. Sadly, age is age and cannot truly be stopped. Years ago, I read about men who availed themselves of silicone chest implants, and recall wondering how that was going to look 20 or 30 years hence, when their skin was drooping over a plastic six-pack.
Fashion rules. It always has; it likely always will. As in the last century, the trendy edge of fashion today continues to be driven mostly by film and music stars. Britney, Reese, and Demi (whose toned and terrific body was pretty well the only thing critics noticed in the latest "Charlie's Angels" film -- and maybe that was the strategy all along, deflecting withering reviews about something as trivial as plot or acting) set the pace -- or at least they grace enough covers and interiors of Us Magazine to make everyone think they do.
Of course, there are many women and men among us who are older and still chic. They manage to project confidence and appeal instead of a naked desire to be asked for ID the next time they visit a bar. There is an old saying that elegance is refusal. (Coco Chanel probably said it before her label became renowned for an excess of gold chain and billboard-sized interlocking C logos.) If only we could interpret that to mean something other than fewer clothes and increasing discomfort about acting our age -- whatever that may mean today.
So we're faced with the issue of aging without actually getting older. It can be a tough act to bring off successfully. Just ask Dorian Gray -- who ended up dead in a garret when his body finally caught up with his rightful age and character. The good news for modern Grays: we wear our venality proudly for all to see. With luck and diligent cosmetic application -- scalpel, makeup, clothing -- the interior will crumble long before anyone gets to see the real person.
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About Evelyn Yallen
Evelyn Yallen is a writer on arts and fashion. She lives in Toronto with her husband, son, too many small animals, and enough rhinestone jewelry to make a drag queen weep.
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I'm here quite often ;-)
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Linda
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| #135 (permalink) Fri Nov 02, 2007 16:40 pm feedback on tests |
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| Alan wrote: | And there you go, I did get my head bitten off. Just for the record, I didn't highlight 'you say' in my posting and 'lying' is a very strong word to describe my very tentative: but I get a sense that when you make these comments, there is an underlying hint suggesting... I am also accused of 'censoring', 'denying' and 'fabricating'. I imagine anyone reading my remarks and yours will draw their own conclusions. It's ironic, to me at least, that you choose to make your comments in blue.
PS What's Shakespeare, by the way, got to do with all this?
| Quote: | | The lady doth protest too much, methinks. |
Hamlet Act 3, scene 2
Alan |
Yep, I highlighted your "you say" because I was addressing that aspect of your comment in particular, and because I know that you cannot produce any evidence whatsoever of what you claimed there. Why not? Because what you wrote is not true. It's as simple as that, Alan.
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