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 #2 (permalink) Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:25 am Queen's English |
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Hi Alan,
Thanks a lot for your wonderfully written introduction of one of the most important organizations in the world. Interestingly enough, you can become a member of QES without dropping your accent in favour of RP. I wonder what EU would say about this:
The Society hopes to attract those who are interested in, and knowledgeable about, the English language. However, members are not required to be experts on the niceties of good English, and are certainly not required to drop their accent in favour of RP; what is needed is no more than a concern for standards and good English.
By the way, there is one 'the' too many in this sentence and I'll notify the society of it:
There is also a need for volunteers to carry out the many small but very important administrative tasks which are essential to the the Society's continuing existence.
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Torsten
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| #3 (permalink) Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:15 pm Queen's English |
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Hi Torsten,
Excellent - do notify them about that! I'd love to hear their response and don't forget to mention our site! Interestingly and this should certainly interest EU, I heard the President of the Society the other day on TV and he had a distinctly noticeable South African accent. What is the world coming to?
Alan
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| #4 (permalink) Wed Oct 31, 2007 19:12 pm Queen's English |
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Hi Alan,
Just a quick note to let you know I've just received an email from the QES webmaster saying that the mistake has been corrected...
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Torsten
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| #5 (permalink) Wed Oct 31, 2007 19:41 pm Queen's English |
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Hi Torsten,
Brilliant!!!
Alan
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| #6 (permalink) Wed Oct 31, 2007 21:22 pm Queen's English |
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Hi,
| Quote: | | I wonder what EU would say about this: However, members are not required to be experts on the niceties of good English, and are certainly not required to drop their accent in favour of RP |
| Quote: | | Interestingly and this should certainly interest EU, I heard the President of the Society the other day on TV and he had a distinctly noticeable South African accent. What is the world coming to? |
I think people should be encouraged to adopt and/or maintain whichever accent they like.
Today I had an interesting conversation about which type of pronunciation English people think foreign residents in England should adopt. For most speakers, it is easier to learn to pronounce words the American way, so I suggested a Polish speaker adopt a General American style of pronunciation. Perhaps not so surprisingly, a young Briton told me it would be rather a bad idea for a foreign speaker to speak that way in England, and that you might not even be understood should you pronounce the word 'cough' /kɑːf/ instead of /kɒf/. My own pronunciation is of course /kɔːf/.
EU |
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Englishuser
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| #7 (permalink) Wed Oct 31, 2007 22:58 pm Queen's English |
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| Englishuser wrote: | Today I had an interesting conversation about which type of pronunciation English people think foreign residents in England should adopt. For most speakers, it is easier to learn to pronounce words the American way, so I suggested a Polish speaker adopt a General American style of pronunciation. Perhaps not so surprisingly, a young Briton told me it would be rather a bad idea for a foreign speaker to speak that way in England, and that you might not even be understood should you pronounce the word 'cough' /kɑːf/ instead of /kɒf/. My own pronunciation is of course /kɔːf/.
EU |
Hi EU,
"...which accent to adopt..."...it's not like you get it in a shop, is it? And if adoptation of an accent is free of choice, why not adopt whatever accent is around you instead of striving for an accent? Since this Polish person seems to live somewhere in the UK, I don't see any reason why he shouldn't wait for an accent growing on him instead of trying hard to acquire (an artificial) one. You still seem to have this mad idea in your head that accents should be best learned from books or other surreal sources, innit?
You don't need any perfect whatsoever accent to be intelligible. Concentrating on content rather than wrapping sounds more like the ticket to me. The word "cough" can surely be understood in every accent, even when pronounced /kɔːf/. But there is an underlying message in /kɔːf/ that is more sophisticated than in any other.
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 Ralf
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| #8 (permalink) Thu Nov 01, 2007 0:49 am Queen's English |
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| Englishuser wrote: | My own pronunciation is of course /kɔːf/.
EU |
I only get squares instead of phonetic symbols. Could you transcribe your pronunciation of 'cough' differently for me, please, EU? And why 'of course'? |
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Conchita
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| #9 (permalink) Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:20 am Queen's English |
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Hi Ralf,
| Quote: | | Since this Polish person seems to live somewhere in the UK, I don't see any reason why he shouldn't wait for an accent growing on him instead of trying hard to acquire (an artificial) one. |
This is not a question of accent acquisition but rather a question of learning to pronounce words in such a way that you will be understood.
| Quote: | | You still seem to have this mad idea in your head that accents should be best learned from books or other surreal sources, innit? |
I don't think it's possible to learn an accent from a book, but I certainly think it is important to study the sound system and phonetic inventory of your target-accent.
I am afraid I am not sure about what you mean by this:
| Quote: | | But there is an underlying message in /kɔːf/ that is more sophisticated than in any other. |
Care to elaborate?
EU |
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Englishuser
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| #10 (permalink) Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:25 am Queen's English |
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Hi Conchita,
When I say 'cough' I make the same vowel sound as a BBC English speaker would in pronouncing 'caught'. How do you pronounce 'cough'?
EU |
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Englishuser
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| #11 (permalink) Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:50 am Queen's English |
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| I pronounce 'cough' the standard (if you'll allow me the term) British way: [kof], that is, it rhymes with (the standard British) 'off' (but I suppose you would say [o:f]?). |
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Conchita
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| #12 (permalink) Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:29 pm Queen's English |
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| Englishuser wrote: | Hi Ralf,
| Quote: | | Since this Polish person seems to live somewhere in the UK, I don't see any reason why he shouldn't wait for an accent growing on him instead of trying hard to acquire (an artificial) one. |
This is not a question of accent acquisition but rather a question of learning to pronounce words in such a way that you will be understood.
| Quote: | | You still seem to have this mad idea in your head that accents should be best learned from books or other surreal sources, innit? |
I don't think it's possible to learn an accent from a book, but I certainly think it is important to study the sound system and phonetic inventory of your target-accent.
I am afraid I am not sure about what you mean by this:
| Quote: | | But there is an underlying message in /kɔːf/ that is more sophisticated than in any other. |
Care to elaborate?
EU |
Hi EU,
I think you don't want to get my point; "learning to pronounce words in such a way that you will be understood" is something you pick up as you go (as long as you live in a country). There is no need for adopting an American accent in England.
People will understand you, if you learn to speak in a way that is close to their own.
If you don't happen to live in an authentic language environment, you should make use of authentic language sources.
Your UCRP does not really fall into this category. And why pay rediculous money for a phonetician when there is wide open space full of free material?
It has never been doubted that studying the sound system hepls. But I do believe that adopting a freak accent both lacks necessity and relevance.
If you are amongst a few thousand English speakers worldwide who pronounce the word "cough" like /kɔːf/, you are living proof of my point.
Don't you think that you could find a more appropriate way to "eradicate" your Finnish accent?
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| #13 (permalink) Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:42 pm Queen's English |
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Hi EU,
I had a good laugh when I discovered you pronounced 'cough' in vowel sound terms to equate with 'caught'. I have been an avid BBC radio listener for some 65 years, worked for the BBC and knew and indeed know many 'BBC English speakers' as you call them. And if they had pronounced it such or do pronounce it such, they would have been/would be the butt of much humour - people would probably laugh their heads orf.
Out of interest which surreal part of the UK are you currently living in?
Alan
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| #14 (permalink) Thu Nov 01, 2007 14:36 pm Queen's English |
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Hi Ralf,
| Quote: | | I think you don't want to get my point; "learning to pronounce words in such a way that you will be understood" is something you pick up as you go (as long as you live in a country). There is no need for adopting an American accent in England. |
The person in question intends to live in the United States. It also happens to be the case that American diphthongs are easier for Polish speakers to learn than British English diphthongs. My point is that accents still matter to people i.e. the Briton I referred to thought it would be odd for someone to want to speak with an American accent.
| Quote: | | People will understand you, if you learn to speak in a way that is close to their own. |
There is no such accent that would sound close to everybody else's accent in English.
| Quote: | But I do believe that adopting a freak accent both lacks necessity and relevance.
If you are amongst a few thousand English speakers worldwide who pronounce the word "cough" like /kɔːf/, you are living proof of my point. |
Actually, quite a few people pronounce 'cough' like /kɔːf/, as it is a standard pronunciation in North America. I would not be surprised if my pronunciation turned out to be more common than the BBC English one. Speaking U-RP or near U-RP is different, but I am very reluctant to call it freaky.
| Quote: | | Don't you think that you could find a more appropriate way to "eradicate" your Finnish accent? |
Being a bilingual I have been wondering if there ever was a trace of a Finnish accent in my spoken English.
EU |
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Englishuser
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| #15 (permalink) Thu Nov 01, 2007 14:43 pm Queen's English |
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Hi Alan,
John Wells again:
| Quote: | | In old-fashioned U-RP (and in old-fashioned RP in general), CLOTH words have /ɔː/ rather than the usual /ɒ/, thus cross /krɔːs/. soft /sɔːft/. Even in contemporary younger U-RP /ɔː/ is often found in a few CLOTH words, notably in off /ɔːf/ (mainstream RP /ɒf/). |
See, this pronunciation is heard in BrE!
I don't live too far from where you live.
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