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 #17 (permalink) Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:11 am Castration? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Jamie (K) wrote: | | A lot of the published data will be filtered through feminist academics, who have a vested interest in exaggerating the numbers. Thus, they'll take even frivolous complaints seriously, much as they exaggerate the percentage of women who are beaten by their husbands. |
I see. But, do you think the case of having punishment for false claims would make women who are sexually harrassed think twice before going to the police, their HR dept, the union, etc? |
You're right! That's the whole point of it! If there is a legal penalty for filing false sexual harassment claims, then the claims will generally only be filed by women who have really been sexually harassed and can prove it! In the current situation, too many innocent men have had their careers and reputations ruined by false sexual harassment accusations leveled by women who simply wanted the men "punished" for something and found that sexual harassment has the vaguest standard of proof and no bad consequences for the woman if she's found to be lying. I've seen it happen in companies that some woman will simply not like working with some man -- maybe he is a demanding boss or somehow reminds her of her ex-husband or some other person she doesn't like -- and so she actively looks for an opportunity to bring a sexual harassment accusation even though the man has never sexually harassed anybody.
| Molly wrote: | | Going back to castration, you said that we should keep offenders in prison until their sentence ends or they are no longer a threat to society, whichever comes last. You also said that therapy doesn't work. So, how would they ever become no longer a threat to society - excluding death in your answer? |
I think they always remain a threat to society.
The Catholic Church in the United States is a sad illustration of the ineffectiveness of therapy. Somehow in the late '60s and early '70s, a lot of homosexual pedophiles went through the seminaries undetected, and they began molesting boys at their parishes. In those days it was believed that psychotherapy could cure anybody, and so the men were sent to therapy but never incarcerated. Most of them continued to molest people -- including the ones whom the therapists said were "cured" -- and by the 1990s the number of victims numbered in the hundreds or thousands, and the church is having to pay millions in damages to these victims. So much for therapy. The bishops call the cops now. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #18 (permalink) Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:30 am Castration? |
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| Quote: | | You're right! That's the whole point of it! If there is a legal penalty for filing false sexual harassment claims, then the claims will generally only be filed by women who have really been sexually harassed and can prove it! |
Do you think that proving it, and being believed, is that easy?
| Quote: | | In the current situation, too many innocent men have had their careers and reputations ruined by false sexual harassment accusations leveled by women who simply wanted the men "punished" for something and found that sexual harassment has the vaguest standard of proof and no bad consequences for the woman if she's found to be lying. |
Sh*t happens, Jamie. I feel sorry for those men. Have you also seen the many cases where men think it's OK to touch a woman's ass in the office and call it "playful"?
| Quote: | | So much for therapy. |
So, again, what should we do with offenders? |
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Molly
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| #19 (permalink) Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:36 am Castration? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Do you think that proving it, and being believed, is that easy? |
Here we go, Molly, back to square one! Back to the damn Russia of Stalin's ruling, where once a goddamn squealer rats on some decent guy and bingo! that guy suddenly disappears and noone sees him again! And no proof, no evidence. Just some loony's blabbering that counts !
No way, Molly!!!! If a woman wants to fetch law of me, then she mush have really smashing evidence that I harrassed her, or else there should be a penalty for her acting like an a$$hole ! |
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Lost_Soul
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| #20 (permalink) Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:44 am Castration? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | You're right! That's the whole point of it! If there is a legal penalty for filing false sexual harassment claims, then the claims will generally only be filed by women who have really been sexually harassed and can prove it! |
Do you think that proving it, and being believed, is that easy? |
If you can't prove an accusation, you shouldn't make it.
| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | In the current situation, too many innocent men have had their careers and reputations ruined by false sexual harassment accusations leveled by women who simply wanted the men "punished" for something and found that sexual harassment has the vaguest standard of proof and no bad consequences for the woman if she's found to be lying. |
Sh*t happens, Jamie. |
No, it didn't just happen. A dishonest woman did it by leveling a false accusation. That's an act by a conscious individual, not an event that just "happened".
| Molly wrote: | I feel sorry for those men. Have you also seen the many cases where men think it's OK to touch a woman's ass in the office and call it "playful"?
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Honestly, I have worked in factories, and I've worked in many corporations, and I've witnessed more incidences of false sexual harassment accusations than I have of men touching women sexually. It stands to reason, because the man knows he can get into trouble for touching the woman that way, but the woman knows she CAN'T get into trouble for falsely accusing someone.
However, I have seen many cases where women have touched men sexually -- because men seldom file sexual harassment complaints, so women never get into trouble for that kind of touching. If the man doesn't happen to like being touched that way by that particular woman or any woman, and he complains, the women will tell him to "lighten up".
| Molly wrote: | | So, again, what should we do with offenders? |
I told you, but you didn't like my answer. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #21 (permalink) Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:55 am Castration? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | | No, it didn't just happen. A dishonest woman did it by leveling a false accusation. That's an act by a conscious individual, not an event that just "happened". |
Hi, Jamie
May I raise a question of vocabulary?
Does to level an accusation mean to concoct/cook up an accusation?
Many thanks in advance. |
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Lost_Soul
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| #22 (permalink) Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:13 pm Castration? |
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| lost_soul wrote: | May I raise a question of vocabulary?
Does to level an accusation mean to concoct/cook up an accusation? |
No, to level an accusation simply means to make an accusation. You can also level charges. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #23 (permalink) Wed Apr 09, 2008 13:30 pm Castration? |
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According to the risk management powerpoint presentation that the HR rep here reads to us every year, this is what we're supposed to do if we're offended by another employee:
1) Approach the offending coworker. Do not smile.
2) Tell the offending coworker something along the lines of, "I am not smiling. I find your actions/comments offensive. Please refrain from such further actions/comments."
That's supposed to nip it in the bud.
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Prezbucky
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| #24 (permalink) Wed Apr 09, 2008 13:39 pm Castration? |
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There's the PC psychobabble definition of sexual harassment, according to which something as innocuous as a cockeyed smile may be interpreted as a lascivious leer frowned upon as a solid example of sexual harassment.
Common sense tells most of us to simply avoid the people who take such a stance: if a person's skin is so thin -- or he is so vindictive -- that he would attempt to ruin someone's career based on a glance, that person is someone most reasonable people wish to avoid.
Generally there's some playful banter, but most people understand it as such, and it's done with a chuckle -- clearly in a non-serious, non-intrusive, non-threatening manner.
In other words, most of us are just fine BSing each other for kicks. If someone doesn't like it, such talk ceases -- we respect each other.
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Prezbucky
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| #25 (permalink) Wed Apr 09, 2008 14:00 pm Castration? |
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| prezbucky wrote: | There's the PC psychobabble definition of sexual harassment, according to which something as innocuous as a cockeyed smile may be interpreted as a lascivious leer frowned upon as a solid example of sexual harassment.
Common sense tells most of us to simply avoid the people who take such a stance: if a person's skin is so thin -- or he is so vindictive -- that he would attempt to ruin someone's career based on a glance, that person is someone most reasonable people wish to avoid. |
Hi, Tom
I think the issue is that a woman can use false harrassment accusations as a means of getting rid of someone she doesn't like, or someone who hampers her to climb up the career ladder. And she wouldn't be held liable for her prejudicial actions, if the court proves that there was no harrassment at all. But if the court mistakingly makes a ruling against the harrasser, that accusation will have a detrimental impact on his career. |
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Lost_Soul
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| #26 (permalink) Wed Apr 09, 2008 14:31 pm Castration? |
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yeah, it's sad. (about the workplace restrictions on non-threatening fun)
In terms of courts:
The US tort system almost invites false accusations and the resulting bogus litigation. A possible fix would be if the loser had to pay the legal fees of the winner -- that would likely keep some of the BS lawsuits from ever wasting any of the court's time (and the people's money).
Even if the case is thrown out as frivolous and the plaintiff universally ridiculed as a fraud, the defendant still must pay his attorney.
If the above rule change took effect, the fraudulent litigant (whose case was thrown out) would have to pay the legal fees of both himself and the defendant.
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Prezbucky
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Daemon99
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| #28 (permalink) Wed Apr 09, 2008 20:01 pm Castration? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | | If you can't prove an accusation, you shouldn't make it. |
What a strange comment. Many people have tried to prove things, but have lost their case anyway.
| Jamie (K) wrote: | | Honestly, I have worked in factories, and I've worked in many corporations, and I've witnessed more incidences of false sexual harassment accusations than I have of men touching women sexually. |
Really? Were you there each time a man sexually touched a woman?
| Jamie (K) wrote: | | I told you, but you didn't like my answer. |
You told me we should lock them away and only let them out at the end of their sentence or when they are no longer a threat to society. Oh, and you said that we shouldn't give them therapy. You then said that there would never be a time when an offender is no longer a threat. So, where does that leave us and them? Execute them? Lock 'em up and throw away the key? |
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Molly
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| #29 (permalink) Wed Apr 09, 2008 21:27 pm Castration? |
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In some cases, yes, because there is no pill for sociopathy.
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Prezbucky
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| #30 (permalink) Wed Apr 09, 2008 23:02 pm Castration? |
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| prezbucky wrote: | | In some cases, yes, because there is no pill for sociopathy. |
No cure? |
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Molly
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