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 Tue May 27, 2008 12:21 pm Topic translation: As to the duty of pursuing equality, there is no such consent |
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There is a tension in Western society between people who think that everyone should have legal equality and people who think that you have to make people equal in every way. The former people believe that it is enough to provide people with equal opportunity and equal treatment under the law, and to protect everyone's rights. The other people think that it's the government's job to make sure that everyone's results are equal -- that no one is richer or poorer than anyone else, that no one is more "successful" than everyone else. Many people think that social equality is impossible to achieve, because people have different talents and abilities, and some have more motivation than others, and so attempts to achieve social equality end up punishing society's most productive people.
We don't use the expression "a hard word" where I live, but I believe that in this instance it means that the English are very critical of the idea of forcing social equality. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4722
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Tue May 27, 2008 12:38 pm Topic translation: As to the duty of pursuing equality, there is no such consent |
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| Quote: | | The former people believe that it is enough to provide people with equal opportunity and equal treatment under the law, and to protect everyone's rights. |
But in reality, where does that happen?
| Quote: | Many people think that social equality is impossible to achieve, because people have different talents and abilities, and some have more motivation than others,and so attempts to achieve social equality end up punishing society's most productive people.
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And some are disabled, the "wrong" colour for the job, wear the wrong clothes and hairstyles, too fat, too thin, a woman, a man, etc., etc.
Drug dealers/traffickers are some of the most productive people in the USA. Do they get punished? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| Tue May 27, 2008 12:54 pm Topic translation: As to the duty of pursuing equality, there is no such consent |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | The former people believe that it is enough to provide people with equal opportunity and equal treatment under the law, and to protect everyone's rights. |
But in reality, where does that happen? |
It doesn't happen absolutely perfectly anywhere, but it happens in some places much better than in others.
| Molly wrote: | | Drug dealers/traffickers are some of the most productive people in the USA. Do they get punished? |
You're confusing income and activity with productivity. Drug dealers are some of the most DESTRUCTIVE people in the US. They're not creating value, but a burden on society.
| Molly wrote: | | And some are disabled, the "wrong" colour for the job, wear the wrong clothes and hairstyles, too fat, too thin, a woman, a man, etc., etc. |
I find it interesting how you mix characteristics that people choose with ones that they don't choose, as if they were the same thing. People cannot choose their race or gender. They choose their clothes and hairstyles, and to a large extent they choose whether or not they'll be fat, thin or average. These things involve behavior, and an employer is within his or her rights to screen out people whose behavior will be counterproductive or destructive to the enterprise. A guy who gets a satanic symbol tattooed on his face has made a deliberate choice to limit his opportunities. He may have been too stupid to realize it or care, but that's his problem, not society's or the government's.
Discrimination by race or gender is another matter. Anti-discrimination laws help alleviate that, but laws intended to actively promote the advancement of one race or gender or another simply result in more discrimination. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4722
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Tue May 27, 2008 12:57 pm Topic translation: As to the duty of pursuing equality, there is no such consent |
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| Quote: | | They choose their clothes and hairstyles, and to a large extent they choose whether or not they'll be fat, thin or average. These things involve behavior, and an employer is within his or her rights to screen out people whose behavior will be counterproductive or destructive to the enterprise. |
I see, so you'd always rather question the candidate than the company philosophy, right?
| Quote: | | but laws intended to actively promote the advancement of one race or gender or another simply result in more discrimination. |
That's how the USA got to where it is today, isn't it? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| Tue May 27, 2008 14:01 pm Topic translation: As to the duty of pursuing equality, there is no such consent |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | They choose their clothes and hairstyles, and to a large extent they choose whether or not they'll be fat, thin or average. These things involve behavior, and an employer is within his or her rights to screen out people whose behavior will be counterproductive or destructive to the enterprise. |
I see, so you'd always rather question the candidate than the company philosophy, right? |
The government has no business forcing lifestyle choices, hairstyles, eating habits and other volitional behaviors on employers who find them detrimental to business. Most employers are small businesses, and they don't have the option of losing money or customers by indulging people's chosen quirks.
When I was 18, I had hair down to my butt. My employment was limited to jobs in which having hair down to your butt didn't matter. So I couldn't play in a band in a redneck bar (my musical skills were up to snuff, but I had that hair). I also couldn't get jobs where hair might be caught in machines or where a "clean" public image was necessary. That was my choice. At that time, for some reason, having hair down to my butt was more important to me than a good job. Later, on my own, I felt like cutting the hair off, and after I did that, my employability improved. When my hair was that long, a lot of employers took it as a clue that I must have other characteristics that would make me a bad employee, and they were right.
| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | but laws intended to actively promote the advancement of one race or gender or another simply result in more discrimination. |
That's how the USA got to where it is today, isn't it? |
Exactly. It has become a place where it's legal and often even obligatory to discriminate against whites and men, but where treating racial minorities equally is considered "discrimination". If you have a white employee competing for a job with a somewhat less qualified minority employee, you have to hire the minority person, or you could have trouble with the government. If a white employee behaves destructively, you can simply fire him, but if a black or Hispanic employee behaves the same way, you have to assemble all kinds of documentation to prove that he wasn't working properly, and then you may still have to fight a frivolous race discrimination lawsuit.
However, the US government interferes in those matters less than the governments in some other countries. We have a very low unemployment rate (around 4%), as opposed to places like France, where the unemployment rate was recently around 25% for people in their 20s. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4722
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Tue May 27, 2008 17:37 pm Topic translation: As to the duty of pursuing equality, there is no such consent |
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| Quote: | | The government has no business forcing lifestyle choices, hairstyles, eating habits and other volitional behaviors on employers who find them detrimental to business. Most employers are small businesses, and they don't have the option of losing money or customers by indulging people's chosen quirks. |
But I didn't ask about government, did I?
Repeat: I see, so you'd always rather question the candidate than the company philosophy, right? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| Tue May 27, 2008 17:38 pm Topic translation: As to the duty of pursuing equality, there is no such consent |
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| Molly wrote: | | Repeat: I see, so you'd always rather question the candidate than the company philosophy, right? |
I don't know how you reached that conclusion. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4722
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Tue May 27, 2008 17:39 pm Topic translation: As to the duty of pursuing equality, there is no such consent |
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| Quote: | | Exactly. It has become a place where it's legal and often even obligatory to discriminate against whites and men, but where treating racial minorities equally is considered "discrimination". |
What's positive discrimination? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| Tue May 27, 2008 17:40 pm Topic translation: As to the duty of pursuing equality, there is no such consent |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | | Molly wrote: | | Repeat: I see, so you'd always rather question the candidate than the company philosophy, right? |
I don't know how you reached that conclusion. |
You wouldn't?
| Quote: | | We have a very low unemployment rate (around 4%), |
??
USA around 5%, as of April 2008. France, 8.1%, as of May 2008. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| Tue May 27, 2008 17:43 pm Topic translation: As to the duty of pursuing equality, there is no such consent |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | Exactly. It has become a place where it's legal and often even obligatory to discriminate against whites and men, but where treating racial minorities equally is considered "discrimination". |
What's positive discrimination? |
You tell me. You appear to have made up the term. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4722
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Tue May 27, 2008 17:47 pm Topic translation: As to the duty of pursuing equality, there is no such consent |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | | Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | Exactly. It has become a place where it's legal and often even obligatory to discriminate against whites and men, but where treating racial minorities equally is considered "discrimination". |
What's positive discrimination? |
You tell me. You appear to have made up the term. |
Did I create these pages?
Googled: 280,000 English pages for "positive discrimination". |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| Tue May 27, 2008 19:15 pm Topic translation: As to the duty of pursuing equality, there is no such consent |
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Thanks for your reply Jamie K, it helps me a lot  |
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Learner_Of_English
New Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 6
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| 'forget' vs 'forget about' | Grammatically correct? (It is the only reason I stay on here.) |
