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 Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:12 am Which type of dialogues are happening in the ESL classroom? |
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| Do you get a feeling that there are not many ESL teachers here - if any? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:48 am Which type of dialogues are happening in the ESL classroom? |
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Hi Molly
It is interesting to observe that you make this presumption when you do not get a quick response to your posts, any reason for this?
fyi; I have taught ESL and EFL, and still do (my best); )
The use of authentic as opposed to edited or scripted text is an ongoing debate.
There is the argument that a lot of material is very forced and sounds artificial, without either errors or variants. And if this is far removed from being authentic?
Then there is the counter-argument that a student may pick up the traits of an authentic text, and should a teacher impose that on their students.
Some ESL/EFL teachers may not be aware of this debate.
But books are often demanded by the client, as it gives an obvious structure to a course, lesson and a security net.
We also have to consider the needs, aims of the student.
It may be acceptable to a teenager to pick up the use of "like" if they are going on an exchange visit to the States (or even regions of the UK), as they want to fit in.
However should we teach or expose a businessperson to this text, if his aim is to sound very professional at a formal conference?
btw there is a lot of recording of genuine conversations that goes into the development of material, and lesson plans at the moment.
But as in any profession, especially teaching, it is always down to whether the person can be bothered to keep up to date with modern theory/ practice.
cheers stew.t.
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Stew.t.
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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Location: Leipzig, Germany
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:12 am Which type of dialogues are happening in the ESL classroom? |
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| Quote: | | It is interesting to observe that you make this presumption when you do not get a quick response to your posts, any reason for this? |
Fun. You should try it, Stew.
BTW, can you show us where I've made such presumptions?
| Quote: | | But books are often demanded by the client, as it gives an obvious structure to a course, lesson and a security net. |
Is that a good thing?
| Quote: | | The use of authentic as opposed to edited or scripted text is an ongoing debate. |
Yes, authentic for whom, is the question. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:24 am Which type of dialogues are happening in the ESL classroom? |
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[quote="Molly"] | Quote: | Fun. You should try it, Stew.
BTW, can you show us where I've made such presumptions?
| Quote: | | But books are often demanded by the client, as it gives an obvious structure to a course, lesson and a security net. |
Is that a good thing? |
Really if you say it is fun. In my honest opinion, it comes across as annoyance with native speaker arrogance, and your "feeling sorry for teachers. Just the tone your posts often reflect.
Of course reliance on a book is not a good thing. As material is not always fool proof or of a good quality, and it is not tailoring a course to the needs of the client.
But it is an easier life for the client, and the teacher.
Given the choice I would always try to make the client see that a book driven course is a bad thing, but if they can´t think out of the box, you have to live with using the book as some kind of skeleton for the course.
This is not to say that all "teachers" have this approach.
The book approach to me is like making a short cut.
Also we have cowboys in all professions so some will take this approach.
It is worth noting not all ESL/EFL teachers are doing it as a career.
cheers stew.t.
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Stew.t.
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 526
Location: Leipzig, Germany
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:26 am Which type of dialogues are happening in the ESL classroom? |
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| Quote: | It may be acceptable to a teenager to pick up the use of "like" if they are going on an exchange visit to the States (or even regions of the UK), as they want to fit in.
However should we teach or expose a businessperson to this text, if his aim is to sound very professional at a formal conference? |
I must say that I am always surprised to see that most ESL teachers focus on what a student will need to say and not much on what a student will hear. Just a thought.
Even on/in the Madrid metro, I hear many 17 to 20 year old Americans using "like" and "y'know" and "awsome!". Thank goodness my English teacher exposed our group, made up of 17 - 45 year olds, business people and ordinary folk, to "natural" language use in context. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:36 am Which type of dialogues are happening in the ESL classroom? |
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| Quote: | | Just the tone your posts often reflect. |
The written word, eh? You should see some of the posts from the native speakers, the ones who seem to get so pissed off when a non-native dares to question their "authority" and intuition. Let me know whether those posts come across as annoyance, will ya?
| Quote: | | But it is an easier life for the client, and the teacher. |
Easier at the moment of imparting such "knowledge", but can have negative consequences. Later, many things have to be discarded, retaught and questioned. How many times I've heard my peers, from all over the world, say "I went to America/Britain/Australia, etc. and couldn't understand a thing. The English there is nothing like the one I studied with my native-speaking teacher in my own country and I spent so much time and money on". |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:40 am Which type of dialogues are happening in the ESL classroom? |
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Hi Molly
I think you maybe misunderstood my question (?) concerning the concept of "teach" and "expose". I asked the question which you choose to maybe answer indirectly by;
| Quote: | [I must say that I am always surprised to hear that most teachers focus on what a student will need to say and not much on what a student will hear.
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Teaching a businessperson to use certain language in certain contexts is just wrong. I would never teach my business clients to use "Like" for an anecdotal element of a quite formal presentation. This is not to say I would not expose them to this usage.
You would have to understand that most of my clients are business people, so your teacher´s approach and mine may differ. And the success I have in this field probably would produce a similar compliment from my students. If I may be allowed to blow my own trumpet. Although I do know my limitations with scratch beginners.
btw I do use audio files from IDEA or kantalk extensively in lessons.
cheers stew.t.
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Stew.t.
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 526
Location: Leipzig, Germany
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:25 am Which type of dialogues are happening in the ESL classroom? |
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| Quote: | | I would never teach my business clients to use "Like" for an anecdotal element of a quite formal presentation. |
Are you saying that native-speaking businesspeople don't use the expression "like? Most business people I know need more than just the language of presentations, which, BTW, is normally rubbish when taught by an ESL teacher. In general, ESL teachers just cannot teach the language of presentations. Not that which occurs in the real world of business anyway.
| Quote: | | Teaching a businessperson to use certain language in certain contexts is just wrong |
So you never work on register with your businesspeople, right? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:49 am Which type of dialogues are happening in the ESL classroom? |
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[quote="Molly"] | Quote: | | Are you saying that native-speaking businesspeople don't use the expression "like? |
Not what I said.
| Quote: | | Most business people I know need more than just the language of presentations, |
true.
| Quote: | | is normally rubbish when taught by an ESL teacher |
some truth.
| Quote: | | ESL teacherS just cannot teach the language of presentations |
If an ESL teacher has their own business, and does regular presentations, why can they not teach presentations?
And ESL teachers who have their own business are not working in the real world then?
You happen to be working class?  Those that do, do, those that teach can´t.
Nice blanket statements you make, being an authority on ALL ESL teachers.
cheers stew.t.
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Stew.t.
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 526
Location: Leipzig, Germany
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 14:23 pm Which type of dialogues are happening in the ESL classroom? |
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| Quote: | | If an ESL teacher has their own business, and does regular presentations, why can they not teach presentations? |
Why did you cut off "In general" from my comment?
| Quote: | | Nice blanket statements you make, being an authority on ALL ESL teachers. |
Nice omissions of parts of other people's comments you make. |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 20:42 pm Which type of dialogues are happening in the ESL classroom? |
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I think it doesn't matter what kind of dialogs happen in ESL classrooms since an ESL classroom is not the place where people learn English.
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Torsten
Learning Coach
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Location: EU
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 23:43 pm Which type of dialogues are happening in the ESL classroom? |
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| Torsten wrote: | | I think it doesn't matter what kind of dialogs happen in ESL classrooms since an ESL classroom is not the place where people learn English. |
But it should be, now shouldn't it? |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| Wed Jun 04, 2008 23:45 pm Which type of dialogues are happening in the ESL classroom? |
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| Torsten wrote: | | an ESL classroom is not the place where people learn English. |
Would you say the same for ESL test sites?  |
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Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
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| OK Which best suits... | What made you go home? |
