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 #2 (permalink) Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:40 am Ego trip or altruism? |
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| stew.t. wrote: | Is it a problem for learners when they see forums supposedly used to help them out put to use in other ways?
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It must be, sometimes. On the other hand, if you post a question on a foreign-language forum, the answer itself is sometimes not as useful to you as a) the exercise of preparing the question b) the exercise of attempting to follow and join in the subsequent discussions.
(You could therefore regard forum questions as simply a useful pretext for initiating discussion.)
| stew.t. wrote: | How hard is it to back down from an argument? Do you think the relative distance between keystrokers intensifies the inability to say enough is enough? Is it easier to walk away in real life?
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In "real life", your words are generally not recorded; this makes it easier for each side in a discussion to compromise ("No, you've misunderstood; what I meant to say was..."). Also, there is usually a time limit.
Then too, online, we discuss things mostly with strangers; but in "real life", mostly with friends, family, and acquaintances. We often "back down" with the latter not because we think they are right, but because we have to live with them.
In a forum discussion, on the other hand, there is no external pressure to "back down". You can therefore concentrate on the question itself. Other posters will lose interest, after page 2; but of course you'll lose interest in their threads, at some other time.
MrP |
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MrPedantic
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| #3 (permalink) Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:56 pm Ego trip or altruism? |
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That is quite interesting.
Its not just specific to this particular forum I think. Having been part of a couple I have found that social parameters and etiquette are different in a forum than in real life.
Arguments are more prevalent in forums and harder to settle.
A possible reason could be the distance. Its not that its a deliberate thought in the discussion...but more that in real life, the person is there and I think in some way the brain makes an attempt not to ruffle too many feathers. You know? Whether you like this person or not, in some way you know that it might go better for you if you don't make too many enemies.
This part of social life is totally out the window in cyber space, where I might say its almost redundant.
I know many people join different types of forums because they can get some sort of self-awareness and personal affirmation that they might not be able to in real life. So maybe trying to get your point heard above others and recognized is first and foremost for some people. possibly, who knows.
I think this is a difference in intentions. in forums I feel people help to help, and some help to look helpful.
And finally, another point about social interactions in cyber space and real life. In real life we pick and choose who we interact with. We weigh people up and decide whether to engage with them. We have neither the time nor the patience possible to really interact with every single person we meet in a day.
These parameters we set in real life again are not there in cyber space
cyber space and forums throw people together whether they like it or not. This could be a reason why arguments are more heated in the forums.
these are my thoughts... |
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| #4 (permalink) Sat Jun 28, 2008 13:10 pm Ego trip or altruism? |
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Hi,
I think you both miss Stew's point. As I understand it, he's virtually saying that spats, barneys, squabbles and the like among native speakers of English aren't much help to those wanting to learn English. It may be a right giggle for the sparring partners to indulge in these up and downers but it ain't much good if you want to know why we use Present Perfect here and Past Simple there. But then Stew can well speak for himself - that's just my interpretation of his message.
Alan
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| #5 (permalink) Sat Jun 28, 2008 13:16 pm Ego trip or altruism? |
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Ah yes of course.
This is definitely a point I did not take into account.
But then Language is such a hard thing, and right and wrong can be a very fine line, effectively ending in a situation where you have two people discussing a point and both being right to certain degrees. But I would say that that was not forum specific, and would be true anywhere. |
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| #6 (permalink) Sat Jun 28, 2008 14:15 pm Ego trip or altruism? |
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| Alan wrote: | Hi,
I think you both miss Stew's point. As I understand it, he's virtually saying that spats, barneys, squabbles and the like among native speakers of English aren't much help to those wanting to learn English. It may be a right giggle for the sparring partners to indulge in these up and downers but it ain't much good if you want to know why we use Present Perfect here and Past Simple there. But then Stew can well speak for himself - that's just my interpretation of his message.
Alan |
Alan has quite a veritable point here. Yesterday he also asked the question, whether we think if forum posters have ever been terrified by a contributor. I think that's quite possible, but then again it's probably like in real life - you sometimes cannot eliminate all the elements in the equation you don't like.
Still, the problem of acerbity remains. You'd only have to click on that thread to see why some find it hard to put an end to a dispute.
To come back to one of Stew's questions (What has this forum taught you?), I try and follow the Don't take it on board personally rule. Of course sometimes that's easier said than done, but not replying to an attack designed to lower your guard keeps you out of inept spats. In real life, however, I do better than on this forum 
| MrPedantic wrote: | | Then too, online, we discuss things mostly with strangers; but in "real life", mostly with friends, family, and acquaintances. We often "back down" with the latter not because we think they are right, but because we have to live with them. |
Another valid argument. In face-to-face communication, a difference in opinion usually leads to a short and at times heated exchange of views. But you can back down with a smirk and a comment made with a twinkle in your eye. On this forum, you can only stop replying and let other posters have their last say.
Ones again, Stew, I think that some learners may grow with discussing at this level. In theory, you could even have non-native speakers with completely idiomatic and impeccable English in over 2,000 posts.
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| #7 (permalink) Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:00 am Ego trip or altruism? |
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Hi guys
Alan hits the nail on the head, I think any key/text tussles between all speakers of English really distracts from the purpose and intention of the site, especially when it is completely off topic .
Maybe it is like in real life that some people like to read their own text, as well as hear their own voice. 
It would be interesting to hear how the primary target group of this forum, learners, feel about this.
It is a shame that a key can easily get in the way of decency.
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| #8 (permalink) Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:15 am Ego trip or altruism? |
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| Stew wrote: | It would be interesting to hear how the primary target group of this forum, learners, feel about this.
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I find, myself, as a learner on other language sites, that Ralf's point is valid:
| Ralf wrote: | | I think that some learners may grow with discussing at this level. |
(That's also the benefit of "controversial subjects" sections on other ESL sites: heated discussion engages and stretches the student.)
That said, not every student will be grateful for 10 pages of debate. Perhaps it would be better for people who want to pursue a point to start new threads.
MrP |
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| #9 (permalink) Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:09 pm Ego trip or altruism? |
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hi Mr P
I agree with the premise that discursive debate is very beneficial to learners.
However concerning decency, sometimes I see that it is the more so the personal vendettas that become the point not the issue at hand.
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| #10 (permalink) Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:36 pm Ego trip or altruism? |
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Yes, I agree with you; and also with the "don't take it personally" rule. I'm quite sure that many people who make personal attacks online are perfectly charming in "real life" (and no doubt vice versa).
MrP |
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| #11 (permalink) Sun Jun 29, 2008 14:14 pm Ego trip or altruism? |
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Hi Stew
Are you suggesting that learners of English must be shielded at all costs from certain types/styles/registers of English?
It seems to me that "personal vendettas" and a lack of "decency" (to use your words) have manifested themselves in a variety of ways on this site.
| stew.t wrote: | | Is it a problem for learners when they see forums supposedly used to help them out put to use in other ways? |
If you're going to talk about things designed to help a learner out, how about including one of my "favorite" topics: the tests on this site. 
Is it a problem for learners if the tests on a site calling itself "english-test.net" cannot be depended on to be correct?
Is it a problem for learners if the author of a test simply won't discuss a difference of opinion on usage in a test, in essence simply leaving the question hanging?
Is it a problem for learners when one expert goes to the trouble of explaining in detail why he/she disagrees with another expert, only to be flippantly told, for example, that he/she "is dancing on the head of a pin" (thus walking away from any debate and leaving the question unresolved for any learners who might read the thread)?
Is it ultimately a problem for learners if suggestions for improvement of the site are simply walked away from and/or forgotten rather than discussed?
My motives for posting on this site have been questioned in the past. My motives for wanting to see correct tests on this site have also been questioned (and to this day, I find that question to be nothing more than a defensive reaction to the fact that I have not tried to hide or ignore the fact that errors exist in the tests). I've also been informed that this is not my site. However, I would argue that it is indeed "my site" in the sense that there would basically be no forum at all if there were no members.
| Quote: | | Is it a sense of self importance that gets in the way of genuine communication? |
That may be true sometimes. I think that some people tend to feel threatened simply by the fact that someone else has a different opinion.
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| #12 (permalink) Sun Jun 29, 2008 15:22 pm Ego trip or altruism? |
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| Yankee wrote: | Hi Stew
Are you suggesting that learners of English must be shielded at all costs from certain types/styles/registers of English? |
Not my point. Moreover the lack of benefit to the learner if the thread gets side tracked and more a spat.
| Quote: | | It seems to me that "personal vendettas" and a lack of "decency" (to use your words) have manifested themselves in a variety of ways on this site. |
True, and few are outside of blame, although I have not gone so far as a vendetta, I sometimes fell into indecent or off tilter remarks.
| Quote: | If you're going to talk about things designed to help a learner out, how about including one of my "favorite" topics: the tests on this site.
Is it a problem for learners if the tests on a site calling itself "english-test.net" cannot be depended on to be correct?
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Completely agree with you on this point wholeheartedly, a screening process for tests is not a hard system to install. But may require the hiring of an independent body to do this.
I have tracked the thread you refer to with interest. And agree with the fact that anyone shelling out their cash for a test, if they do it in this way, should be ensured to receive something of reasonable quality. I have the same issue with English learner´s books that are badly edited or just thrown together.
A slight tangent, but a book I used recently tried to put fwd that the usual phrase was to rescue deleted files. Maybe understandable but certainly not thought through. I have worked with guys in the IT field and never heard this coin of phrase.
| Quote: | However, I would argue that it is indeed "my site" in the sense that there would basically be no forum at all if there were no members.
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Also agree that a forums based website is in a sense the property of the members. However until there is more of a vocal (textual) outcry no change will be made.
| Quote: | Is it a sense of self importance that gets in the way of genuine communication? hat may be true sometimes. I think that some people tend to feel threatened simply by the fact that someone else has a different opinion.
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I do not feel threatened by a different opinion, especially as I can be argumentative. However it is when this opinion difference becomes a source for personal attacks. This I think is where I have qualms about the way the site has progressed.
The intention is good in essence, but like all things can be abused.
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