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Expression "Worst of all" with article?


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Expression "Worst of all" with article? #16 (permalink) Thu Apr 05, 2007 15:02 pm   Expression "Worst of all" with article?
 

Yankee wrote:
Did you see my added comment in my last post, Conchita? (Sorry, I added the last part after I posted.)

Yes, I did. Of course, with this word order, the article doesn't fit at all.
Conchita
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Location: Madrid, Spain

Expression "Worst of all" with article? #17 (permalink) Thu Apr 05, 2007 15:11 pm   Expression "Worst of all" with article?
 

Hi Conchita

How about these? What's your take?

(1) Tom did the best on the exam.
(2) Tom does best on exams when he is not tired.

Can 'the' be omitted from (1)?
Can/should 'the' be added to (2)?
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8265
Location: USA

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Expression "Worst of all" with article? #18 (permalink) Thu Apr 05, 2007 15:29 pm   Expression "Worst of all" with article?
 

Yankee wrote:
Hi Conchita

How about these? What's your take?

(1) Tom did the best on the exam.
(2) Tom does best on exams when he is not tired.

Can 'the' be omitted from (1)?
Can/should 'the' be added to (2)?

Aren't you getting a headache from all this? Smile

(1) I'd omit 'the' if I meant 'he did best on this exam' (e.g. the oral exam), for example.

(2) Here, too, the meaning would change by adding the article: Tom does better than the others. However, leaving 'when he is not tired' would make it a bit ambiguous.
Conchita
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Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 2826
Location: Madrid, Spain

Expression "Worst of all" with article? #19 (permalink) Thu Apr 05, 2007 15:42 pm   Expression "Worst of all" with article?
 

Yet another dialectal variation: I'd say 'at the exam'.
Conchita
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Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 2826
Location: Madrid, Spain

Expression "Worst of all" with article? #20 (permalink) Thu Apr 05, 2007 16:11 pm   Expression "Worst of all" with article?
 

Conchita wrote:
Aren't you getting a headache from all this? Smile
Laughing No, actually I'm not -- at least not yet. Laughing

The question about not using 'the' with superlatives has been asked at least once before and I've never felt that the question was answered or illustrated as well as it could or should have been. In addition to getting your take on things, I guess I'm also just thinking out loud a bit here.

Be prepared! There may be more. Laughing
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8265
Location: USA

Expression "Worst of all" with article? #21 (permalink) Thu Apr 05, 2007 16:14 pm   Expression "Worst of all" with article?
 

Conchita wrote:
Yet another dialectal variation: I'd say 'at the exam'.
If I used 'at' in that sentence, I would be referring more to the Tom's success on the exam at the exam location rather than simply the exam and its final score in general.
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8265
Location: USA

Expression "Worst of all" with article? #22 (permalink) Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:52 pm   Expression "Worst of all" with article?
 

Dear Amy&Conchita,

Idea Have you thought of adjective vs. adverb superlatives?
I found something on the subject, so please let me know what you think.
This is (a part of) what Mr Swan has to say:

Michael Swan, Practical English Usage, 2nd edition 1995

page 125

138 comparison (4): using comparatives and superlatives, Subsection 12,
the with superlatives

....

THE is sometimes dropped before superlative adverbs in an informal
style.

Who can run (the) fastest?

THE cannot be dropped when a superlative in predicative position is
used with a defining expression.

This dictionary is the best I could find.
NOT: This dictionary is best I could find.

She was the quickest of all the staff.

The is not used with superlatives in predicative position or with
superlative adverbs, when we compare the same person or thing in
different situations. Compare:

He's nicest when he's had a few drinks. (NOT: He's the nicest when...)

I've got a lot of friends, but he's (the) nicest.

She works hardest when she's doing something for her family. (NOT: She
works the hardest when... (a woman's work is being compared in
different situations.)

She works (the) hardest: her husband doesn't know what work is. (A
woman is being compared with a man -- the is possible.)


So, in our case: It was worst of all in the winter as it was usually dark then.
We have "something" that occurs in (at least) two or more seasons, and it gets worst in the winter. This means that we can apply Mr Swan's rule:
The is not used with with superlative adverbs, when we compare the same person or thing in different situations
This "something" is the same "phenomenon" in different situation i.e. season.

Let me know what you think. Question

Snezana
Snezana
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Expression "Worst of all" with article? #23 (permalink) Thu Apr 12, 2007 14:45 pm   Expression "Worst of all" with article?
 

Hi Snezana

Thanks for posting information from Michael Swan's book about this topic.
I've also got his book, but unfortunately it is in storage at the moment. Crying or Very sad

I usually agree with what Swan writes, but I think it should be noted that his book is occasionally more relevant to British English than it is to American English.

Quote:
THE cannot be dropped when a superlative in predicative position is
used with a defining expression.

This dictionary is the best I could find.
NOT: This dictionary is best I could find.

She was the quickest of all the staff.
Yes, that sounds right to me.
Quote:
He's nicest when he's had a few drinks. (NOT: He's the nicest when...)

Quote:
She works hardest when she's doing something for her family. (NOT: She
works the hardest when... (a woman's work is being compared in
different situations.)

In AmE I'd say that the word 'the' would usually be dropped in the sentences above. However, I would not say that the word 'the' would never be used in them.

Quote:
So, in our case: It was worst of all in the winter as it was usually dark then.
We have "something" that occurs in (at least) two or more seasons, and it gets worst in the winter. This means that we can apply Mr Swan's rule:
The is not used with with superlative adverbs, when we compare the same person or thing in different situations
This "something" is the same "phenomenon" in different situation i.e. season.
I agree with your analysis, however I wouldn't say "it gets worst". With the verb 'get', I would use the comparative because 'get' indicates a change from one thing to one other thing. In other words, in this context, 'get' compares two states. So, I would say either "it gets worse" or "it is (the) worst (of all)".
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8265
Location: USA

Expression "Worst of all" with article? #24 (permalink) Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:04 pm   Expression "Worst of all" with article?
 

Amy,

I agree with you regarding Swan's grammar and its relevance to British and American English. You would know that, as a native speaker of American English. Wink

As for my usage of GET(S), maybe I should have used BECOME(S). I wonder if it would be correct. Maybe one can become "something" that is final phase of a certain state, so it could be used with superlative form (as worst is a final phase of bad).
As you said earlier, I'm just thinking out loud! Smile

Regards, Snezana
Snezana
I'm new here and I like it ;-)


Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 20
Location: Europe

Expression "Worst of all" with article? #25 (permalink) Fri Apr 13, 2007 13:43 pm   Expression "Worst of all" with article?
 

Hi Snezana

To me, become would indicate the same thing as get -- a change from one state to another.

Yes, I suppose get(s) or become(s) might work with a superlative in some contexts. If one or more changes of state have already been specifically mentioned (with the same sort of change), then I suppose you could use 'get' or 'become' and the superlative for the final, ultimate change.

But, for the reason I've already mentioned, get and become tend to sound awkward with the superlative.
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)


Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8265
Location: USA

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